On the 11th of July Clive Lewis, Norwich South MP, kindly agreed to talk to us about his experiences of the Holocaust Educational Trust, dehumanisation in modern society and throughout history, and what we can do to combat it. 

Clive Lewis has been a Labour MP since the 2015 election and was elected as chair for the All Party Parliamentary Humanist Group. Before he was elected into parliament he was a BBC News TV reporter and became the BBC eastern region’s chief political reporter. Mr Lewis was also an army reservist officer, serving in Afghanistan in 2009. 

We'd like to thank Clive Lewis for giving his time to talk to us.  In addition to this written interview, a video interview will be published at a later date and used as part of our A History of Dehumanisation presentation. 

Q: What experience do you have of the Holocaust Educational Trust and visiting sites of historic importance to the Holocaust?

I was taken by the Holocaust Educational Trust some years ago when I was a BBC journalist to Auschwitz with my political editor, who happens to be Jewish. I think I was, as I think most people are, shocked by what I saw, humbled into quietness, reflection. I've also been to Yad Vashem in Israel, which is the big Israeli memorial to the Holocaust,I think both touched me in different ways. I think the lesson I learnt from going to Auschwitz; there was a question I asked and it was that they had pictures of victims of the Holocaust but they also had, as I recall, photos of the guards and their families and I couldn't work this out. I asked why is this and they said well you have to see that these people weren't monsters, they were human beings who themselves had been dehumanised, I suppose, as well as dehumanising their victims. None the less, the reason of the photo collage was to explain that anyone, victim or perpetrator, could potentially be a perpetrator. Auschwitz wasn't guarded and enacted by monsters, they were human beings and the lesson is that it can happen again unless we are constantly vigilant, unless we understand that these weren't exceptional monsters but normal everyday human beings that had families and friends and lives outside of what they did here. I think that's really important, that is something I took away from it and I think that stuck with me quite powerfully.

Q: What forms of dehumanisation can you see in society today?

Obviously there is one definition of dehumanisation which is taking away people's humanity but I think there are gradients to that. For example, people everyday can walk past a homeless person and not look at them twice, not even think about it. That is an act of dehumanisation of sorts if we think about it because what we are in effect doing- that person could be our granddad, could be our uncle, our sister, our aunt, our mum- but because we don't know them we walk on past and in some ways a slight part of their humanity has been lost to us, I think that is a form of dehumanisation. But then there are obviously different gradients, all around the world there are acts of dehumanisation that take place, there are Muslims in Burma that are being massacred. Rwanda is another example of genocide, it didn't just suddenly occur, those who were massacred, the Tutsi and moderate Hutu, clearly went through a process that built up to it - for example on the radio -  of dehumanising the victims. And if you know a little bit about the history of the area you will know that it was a divide and conquer policy by the imperialists who controlled the country, the French, and they often drew boundaries and put tribes who had, historically long before the Europeans got there, been at war with each other and had antagonisms. They put them together within a country and it would keep the divide and concur policy, but obviously those ancient antagonisms soaked up by one side spilt over into a genocidal bloodbath at one stage. That would obviously require the process of dehumanisation. If you look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, some people would say that acts of dehumanisation on both sides are taking place, the act of being able to fire missiles at women and children in Israel, at some stage those people, I would suggest, have dehumanised the people they are firing missiles at, but at the same time I am sure there are Palestinians who would say the Israeli's, in some ways have dehumanised them in the acts that they are committing, as we saw in Gaza, or the retaliatory  strikes that Israel makes, that must require a process of dehumanisation.
So dehumanisation takes place, it crosses boundaries, it crosses races, it crosses societies and it can happen in many ways and clearly it is often the initial stage to being able to kill someone. I was a soldier and I know that the way that we, if I'm being completely honest here, dehumanised people, often largely through language and through professionalism, through drills.  So if you're shot at you 'return fire at the enemy', you don't 'return fire at those human beings' over there, there is a process that you go through, it's a learnt frame and process helps enable you to shoot and possibly take life. You don't try to think about the human being you are shooting at, you think about an enemy. If you're looking at an armoured vehicle, you see the armoured vehicle, you don't try to think of the people inside it. The problem though is once you break those barriers down, it can sometimes be difficult to re-establish them. That can lead to problems. But it's not all bad. Sometimes soldiers refuse to dehumanise one another and reassert not just the humanity of the 'enemy' but their own too in the process. There are lots of stories throughout history where soldiers have refused to dehumanise one another. There is the old historic story from the first world war when the soldiers at Christmas in 1914 sang carols and hymns together across the trenches and then began playing football and eventually the generals said 'this is not good, you are not dehumanising one another, you are being friends and comrades and singing together' so they lobbed some shells and fired some machine guns to break it up and people got back to the job of dehumanising and killing one another. It is one of the processes that you go through to be able to mistreat people and then finally, if necessary to kill them and worse still to commit acts of potential genocide. Dehumanisation obviously happens quite frequently because people are being killed all the time. I say that as a humanist who believes in the inherent good of human being beings as opposed to their negatives.That said, mass dehumanisation is often a process that comes about because of extreme political views, scapegoating is used and minority groups often suffer because of this something still very relevant to today. That's because racism is alive and well, anti-Semitism  is alive and well, full blown racism against different races is alive and well and there are a variety of reasons for that.
Extreme political ideologies don't always  start out as extreme political ideologies, they often start out as what people see as quite a moderate viewpoints but they can often change and mutate into extreme political philosophies.There are also people who use those extreme philosophies to mask other problems, to justify the concept of 'the other', the outsider to mask internal problems; unemployment, economic woes, a lack of housing, a lack of jobs, I think that is why some people have a real problem with the language of UKIP. I am not suggesting for a second that many of the four million voters who voted UKIP are dehumanising racists - the vast majority of them voted with with genuine, moderate political belief in their own minds. But the problem with what UKIP, for example, are saying is that it is blaming 'the other', the outsider for economic problems which I think have been generated within our own economy by our own politicians and those making the decisions. It is a form of scapegoating and I think that is a dangerous path to be on because we have all seen from history how such suggestion, accusations, arguments, can end up. I am not saying that is where UKIP will end up but I'm saying some people's alarm bells ring when that process begins, when people start to talk about immigrants coming in to take our jobs, immigrants taking our housing. The term immigrant is a very generalised, very negative term at the moment, it is not a positive term but considering what they do for our country it should be.So language is a part of the dehumanising process. I'm not saying calling someone an immigrant is dehumanising them but as I said it's a steep gradient. If you understand a little bit about anti-Semitism then you will know that in NAZI Germany, initially it started off with some seemingly innocuous cartoons. Obviously anti-Semitism goes back a lot further, there are historical things about blood libels and Jewish people being different, killing God etc, it is often very religious based, but in NAZI Germany one of the ways that the NAZIS were able to dehumanise Jews was through propaganda, through literature, through cartoons showing Jews as subhuman -  so people could laugh, so people could make jokes about Jews, about their facial features, about how they looked, stereotypical things and that's the first stage. Now, if you were there, if you didn't know the Holocaust was coming and you looked at that, someone might say 'stop being so silly, it's just a laugh, look at that, it's a joke, how can that be offensive or dangerous? It's just a silly little cartoon, a little joke.' But the power of hindsight gives us 20/20 vision and we can see where those silly cartoons ended, how they contributed, in a small part to Auschwitz and the concentration camp system. You can see it, there is a direct line that runs through them. I think that dehumanisation isn't just a black and white binary issue, it's a gradient and you can see elements of potential dehumanisation all around us.


Q: What can we do in the modern age to combat dehumanisation?

I think there are a lot of things we can do. I'm a socialist and I believe that one of the ways of being able to combat it is making sure people have the resources they need. There are enough resources on this planet for all seven billion people, there is enough food, there are enough raw materials, enough to feed and clothe everyone to a decent standard. However, there are those who will manipulate and use 'a lack of resources' - a situation that itself arises  because of economic systems that fail to distribute resources fairly -  to create scapegoats for their own systems failure.So one way to stop that is to have an economic and social system which is fair and just, I don't think we have that in this country and I think that can lead to unfortunate things. I think the vans that were driving around London telling people if you're an illegal immigrant to 'go home', were a very dangerous, slippery slope that I think the government should never have entered into. That is why it caused such outrage - because many knew those vans were a new, dehumanising low.
So what shall we do? Well first of all we shouldn't have vans going around with 'get out of our country, go home', for a start. We should also have a fairer social and economic system. I think education is also a part of the solution and I think the work of the Holocaust Educational Trust is fantastic in that it reminds people of what we have the potential within us to do and to commit and I think that is important. I also think the other side is about people meeting each other and being good to each other, talking to one another. The fact that we have a society where we can meet so many different people from so many different cultures, whether through technology or face to face is a wonderful thing. I think that is really important in breaking down those barriers, understanding different cultures, understanding those cultural differences. We are not aliens, we are all human being and we all have different takes on how we interact with one another and the things that we do and say and how we say them, but that's where human empathy shines through. So social and economic justice, education and empathy are all key to ensuring dehumanisation and the negatives which come with it are far less likely to occur.


Clive Lewis

Labour MP for Norwich (South)

@labourlewis

clive@clivelewis.org

Holocaust Educational Trust Ambassador Conference

On the 6th of July, we visited the City of Westminster to attend the annual Holocaust Educational Trust Ambassador Conference. After taking advantage of the free pastries and signing up for our days activities we entered the main conference suite to listen to the Holocaust Educational Trust's Chief Executive, Karen Pollock, who gave an introduction talk before handing over to Sir Peter Bazalgette who talked about remembering for the future; why we should remember the Holocaust. Historian and documentary film maker Laurence Rees then spoke about his experience making films and talking to living Nazis, especially concentrating on their inability to repent. It was then time for our first workshop of the day; we had both chosen the workshop named 'Earth Conceal Not My Blood' run by Dr Caroline Sturdy Colls, Associate Professor of Forensic Archaeology and Genocide Investigation at Staffordshire University. The talk was on unearthing Nazi crime through forensic archaeology.  Dr Caroline Sturdy Colls talked about the work she had done in Treblinka Extermination and Labour Camps in Poland as well as the place of Archaeology in Holocaust research.

It was then time for Lunch, followed by our second workshop of the day. Alice then went to Professor Robert Eaglestone's workshop titled 'Writing the Unwritable; Literature After The Holocaust'. The workshop explored the ways in which the Holocaust has been represented in Literature and what this can tell us about the Holocaust and the remembrance of it. Meanwhile, I attended a workshop about the Roma genocide called 'Overlooked and underacknowledged'.  Professor Rainer Schulze looked at the history of the Roma people and the Nazi genocide policy towards them. The workshop also looked at the question of why the genocide of this particular group as well as others has been largely overlooked when talking about the Holocaust.  This was then followed by a panel discussion on how the Holocaust should be represented. Journalist Hugo Rifkind, Professor Robert Eaglestone, documentary film maker Rex Bloomstein and Dr Caroline Sturdy Colls talked about issues ranging from literature, to social media, to film amongst other issues.

The panel discussion was followed by a Holocaust Survivor Testimony from Mala Tribich MBE. Mala talked about her life in Jewish Ghettos, living in hiding, losing her cousin who claimed to be living with friends of her parents and life in Ravensbruck concentration camp. Mala then talked about how she was then sent to Bergen-Belson, her liberation and life after the war. Mala was then followed by Bernard Levy, one of the British soldiers who liberated Bergen-Belson in 1945. Bernard Levy talked about his life as a soldier, the liberation as well as the work he did with the victims of Bergen-Belson immediately after the war. The day was brought to a close by Nick Robinson, BBC Political Editor, who talked about the role of young people in remembering the Holocaust. We would like to thank the Holocaust Educational Trust as well as all the speakers and organisers for this interesting and insightful day. 

Interview with Bishop Alan Winton

Bishop Alan Winton with HET Ambassador Alice Bate.

Just before the end of the Summer term, we had the privilege of interviewing the Bishop of Thetford, Alan Winton, as part of our project. Before his ordination, Bishop Alan completed a PhD in Biblical Studies and worked with the European Ecumenical Commission for Church and Society. With his wealth of knowledge and passion about both theology and human rights, we had a fascinating discussion about the ways that faith interlinks with the Holocaust and intolerance more widely.

Bishop Alan talked to us about the ways in which religion can drive people to do both immoral and greatly moral things. During the Holocaust, many Christians actively supported the Nazi regime, and the Church did little to oppose it. For victims of the Holocaust, too, the existence and morality of God was called into question., Whilst some lost their faith, others found that it provided the strength to carry on that they so desperately needed.

We also talked about the way that religion can promote values of respect and tolerance, and what he feels are important instances of dehumanisation in the world today which we need to be fighting. This included the negative, demonising rhetoric surrounding particular groups in our society, in addition to wider discussions of conflict internationally. As a public figure, he interacts with people from all walks of life and hears many stories, both of blessing and hardship. For him, the most important thing we can do is learn from the past in order to create a more positive future, through schemes such as the Lessons from Auschwitz project.

We would like to thank Bishop Alan for sparing the time to share his ideas with us. We look forward to sharing them with you when the video is published.

Project update: MP George Freeman

Photo credit: George Freeman's Twitter account.
Top right image L-R: Charlotte Ball, George Freeman, Alice Bate, Miss J Marsh.

On the 19th June, we were fortunate enough to interview Mid Norfolk MP George Freeman about the Holocaust and the ways that we can tackle discrimination in the 21st century.

George Freeman has been MP for Mid Norfolk since 2010, and Minister for Life Sciences since July 2014. He was recently awarded the Grassroot Diplomat Initiative Award for his work on The Norfolk Way, which aims to encourage entrepreneurial enthusiasm here in Norfolk.

We spoke about Mr Freeman's own impressions of Auschwitz, as he visited with Wymondham College and the Holocaust Education Trust on this very same project several years ago. We also discussed the discrimination and prejudice he sees in the world, from mistreatment of the elderly in care homes to conflicts and terrorism abroad. We also considered these issues from a political perspective. Overall, the interview raised many interesting ideas about the ways that we can all help to make the world a more respectful, tolerant place.

This is the first video interview we have completed, and it was an excellent start. Mr Freeman was extremely generous with his time, and we are very excited to publish the interview here soon.

Alice and Dylan

The stories behind the statistics.

This year, the 70^th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, Dylan Read and I had the opportunity to visit the site ourselves as part of the Holocaust Educational Trust’s ‘Lessons from Auschwitz’ project. It was an invaluable chance to learn about the experiences of those involved and discover the contemporary relevance that it has today.

11 million people. One third of the entire Jewish population. 1.5 million children. Everybody knows something about this dreadful genocide. However, these statistics are so immense that it is hard to fathom the individual lives behind them. During our visit, they gained a new meaning.

We saw the Nazi dehumanisation of their victims devastatingly clearly as we observed the extermination camp of Auschwitz II. There were rows upon rows of cramped barracks like holding pens and, as we walked further, the ruins of the gas chambers and metal ovens. There seemed to be no appreciation of them as human beings, only an emotionless, utilitarian logic.

Once I understood this, the importance of re-humanising those involved became apparent. At Auschwitz I, we saw displays of artefacts taken from the victims. Piles of shoes, ranging from summer garden party heels to leather work boots. Suitcases with names and addresses proudly marked on the front. Most disturbing of all, the room of human hair. In the towering mass, a tiny plait caught my eye.

Suddenly, all those statistics hit me again, but each number was a laughing little girl with pigtails, or a woman putting on her favourite dancing shoes, or a father digging out his old holiday suitcase and preparing for the new life he was promised. I became aware of the stark contrast between the simplicity of a few numbers and the complex reality of all those lives interweaving in one event. I remembered that the people who committed these atrocities were not so different themselves, but lived in very different circumstances.

We cannot change these events, but we can and must endeavour to gain an understanding of them.

The visit, whilst harrowing, was also full of hope. Now, wildflowers grow amidst the barbed wire and the air bursts with birdsong. We must all focus on moving forward, but never forget where humankind has been. For the next steps of our LFA project, Dylan and I are creating a video and blog about dehumanisation since the liberation of Auschwitz and speaking to modern influential figures about the fight to end discrimination. By learning from the past, we can strive towards a future where every human life is considered worthy of respect and love.

Alice Bate